Annoying Game Questions You Want Answered

Schleiermacher · Post by **Schleiermacher** » Wed May 07, 2014 10:10 am

Ravenloft is a good candidate: The individual domains are isolated from each other and the Darklords generally aren't that powerful, which means the PCs can kick them over one by one without you having to rewrite the setting into unrecognizability like you'd have to do with Planescape or FR. The only thing you have to do is figure out the true identity and agenda of the Dark Powers, and orchestrate a suitably Final Fantasyesque final boss fight.

Up to you (or them) whether the PCs essentially become the new Dark Powers, or if they make the demiplane a better place by breaking all the curses.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed May 07, 2014 11:42 am

That could actually work pretty well.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Wed May 07, 2014 11:18 pm

Ravenloft played that way becomes a game of hopping between isolated islands, each with their own problems. And you'll be hard pressed to do this since the mists are fickle and don't like to let people make things better.

Well, at least until you get a Spelljamer/Mistship and repeatedly upgrade it to permit rapid transit between Domains.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Thu May 08, 2014 12:08 am

Eh, run it off stargate d20.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Thu May 08, 2014 12:14 am

fectin wrote:Eh, run it off stargate d20.

I'm not terribly familiar with the system, but doesn't STARGATE d20 suck in much the same way that other modern and futuristic d20 games do?

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Thu May 08, 2014 12:15 am

Yes, but it had a stargate. Island hopping: solved!

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu May 08, 2014 2:07 am

I don't know if it's actually been gone over explicitly yet, so, could someone give me a run down of what is specifically wrong with the monk class?

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Thu May 08, 2014 2:25 am

try here:
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=37404
and here:
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50454

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Thu May 08, 2014 3:04 am

Monks have a fundamental inability to do things. When you look at their abilities, the place you would ordinarily expect to find things, you instead find no things. You might think you see things, but on closer inspection they turn out to not be things. Simply put, the monk is a class about not having things, which is cleverly symbolized by fighting naked and unarmed.

rasmuswagner · Post by **rasmuswagner** » Thu May 08, 2014 4:44 am

Prak_Anima wrote:I don't know if it's actually been gone over explicitly yet, so, could someone give me a run down of what is specifically wrong with the monk class?

He's a melee fighter who pays extra for worse equipment and has a lower attack bonus.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu May 08, 2014 4:53 am

That sums it up nicely, but let's look into numbers and shit.
You need Strength, because you use that to punch people (attack roll* and damage).
You need Dexterity, because Initiative and Armour Class (note: you don't just get +8 from armour and a shield at level 1).
You need Constitution because you need hit points: you are going to be right up the front there and have a d8 hit die. You know who else is in the frontline with a d8 hit die? The Cleric, who is wearing full plate and carrying a tower shield (or at level one, has a breastplate and large shield or whatever).
You need Wisdom because Armour Class and Save DCs.

So you put an 8 in Int and Cha and accept that if it isn't directly related to punching people in the dick, you can't do it. This is a bad start, but Barbarians understand it.

Now let's look at what people think the key features are:
-Your crazy-good Armour Class! It's what, 15 at level one? Oh, but at level five it's 16! Yeah.
-ALL GOOD SAVES! So fucking what. Next.
-Unarmed attacks: okay so at level 1 you have +1 or 2 to hit (compared with the Fighter's +4 or 5, or basically the same for a Cleric). Alternatively you can make a pair of attacks at -1 or +0 each. Hence the term "Flurry of Misses". At level eight a Fighter is going +16/+11 for his two attacks (or something to that effect), you're going "HAIYA!" and flurrying +8/+8/+3 (give or take).
-By the way, you can eventually bypass DR/magic the same way everyone else was at level 1-3, but your fists are not magical, you cannot hit ghosts. I don't mean "You don't get to just ignore the 50% Miss Chance", I mean "You have a 100% Miss Chance and just die".
-Class Features: every level gives you some weird bullshit thing that is just sitting there by itself. They don't chain together well, they don't gradually upgrade, you're not even getting "Dodge -> Mobility -> Spring Attack" kind of stuff there, just "Now you're immune to disease" and "How about tiny Spell Resistance?"

If you wanted to spot-fix it without altogether replacing it with Tome Monk, you'd need to:

Make the Unarmoured AC actually matter (See: Armoured in Life)
Give them a Good BAB (or use sleight of hand to give them an equivalent bonus, such as handing out an actual scaling Enhancement Bonus that applies to attack and damage rolls and lets them sometimes hit ghosts)
Make the class features actually matter, preferably as 1 or 2 tracks of things that gradually build up and get better instead of just fifty shitty standalone things
Cut down on the ability scores needed (let Wisdom replace Strength outright, boost the hit die so Con matters less, etc)

*You can bypass this through blowing a feat on Finesse, sticking with archery like monks are known for (or NINJOR STARS), or being Good aligned and blowing a feat on the "PUNCH WITH WISDOM" one. Just accept that you will deal zero damage. Even after setting a feat on fire.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu May 08, 2014 6:09 am

Thanks guys. It's handy to be able to site specific problems when I'm discussing stuff with my friend. Not that I'll necessarily convince him, since he has a lot more table experience than I do, and thus tends towards using anecdotal evidence, frequently his own characters, which are min maxed and aided by amazing rolls.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat May 10, 2014 11:53 pm

I want to through a massive horde of dretches and manes at my party in the next session. They're fifth level, so they're likely to take down each mane/dretch in a single hit, but none of them have cleave (the soulknife does, however, have Mind Cleave, so every hit will be a psychic strike).

This is the problem I keep having with them, though- a few will be over really quickly, hell, they have the soulknife and the TWF ranger up front in a 10' corridor, meaning that they can reliably take out two Dretchs/rnd by themselves, plus whatever the rogue and archer pick off behind that front rank. I could have the demons squeeze into the front rank, presenting four creatures, but at that point I might as well just say it's a wall of flesh they have to hack through because squeezing penalties mean the demons deal no damage.

Anyone know of a good mob/swarm template type thing that can be applied to a mixed group of creatures?

ACOS · Post by **ACOS** » Sun May 11, 2014 12:20 am

Prak_Anima wrote: Anyone know of a good mob/swarm template type thing that can be applied to a mixed group of creatures?

I'd probably shoehorn it in to the existing 3.5 DMG2 mob template and adapt from there. (warning: heavy modification follows)
In your example, just off the top of my head, I might make the following adjustments:
(1) DR 5 magic and (good or cold iron)
(2) instead of summoning, give them Fast Healing 5
(3) have a persistent Stinking Cloud as +5 DC
(4) Acidic Cloud effect every time the mob takes more than 10 points of damage in a single hit
(5) 30' Fear Aura DC 20 - failed save = frightened, successful save = shaken

That incorporates just about everything from the 2 creatures. How does that stack up to a CR 8 encounter?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun May 11, 2014 4:51 am

I'm actually not aiming for a CR 8 challenge, given that they're a 5th level party. I'm more interested in a fight that is more interesting than a wall of flesh they just have to sit and hack through, but not actually a "oh god, we have to heal again before we go fight the actual boss."

ACOS · Post by **ACOS** » Sun May 11, 2014 6:26 am

I only said "CR 8" because that's what the book says ... so that's what I shot for.
As for your goals ... yeah, my suggestion is both "wall of flesh" and "oh god, we have to heal again".

Hmmm ... define "interesting".

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Sun May 11, 2014 6:52 am

Put them somewhere where the things can fall around and surround them.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Sun May 11, 2014 9:42 am

An important thing to remember is that while Manes and Dretches are stupid, they're not mindless. They can and explicitly will follow orders if a more powerful demon tells them to use a more complicated plan than just swarming the enemy.

Another important thing to remember here is that each and every Dretch has Scare and Stinking Cloud once per day as a spell like ability. While the DCs on those abilities are pretty shitty (12 & 13 respectively) they both have a no-save component and work out to medium range. Scare makes you Shaken, even on a successful save, and Stinking Cloud is still an actual cloud that obscures vision and darkvision alike. If there are enough Dretches, the entire party can (and thus likely will) be chased out of their choke point using fear effects and possibly herded into an ambush.

Both Manes and Dretches have a movement speed of 20' which, on first glance, would make it seem like they'd be easy to run away from. Unfortunately, they both also have Telepathy out to 100' and can easily circle the party if enough fear kiting and clouds go down, or even if the party just gets bogged down trying to cut through the masses. Their DR and resistances make it so that most traps that the party could lay down (caltrops, burning oil, falling rocks) can be largely ignored by the advancing hordes. Flying isn't particularly useful, as the Dretches can create concealment using stinking clouds for long enough to get things into cover.

Their key weakness is that they won't actually employ any of these advanced tactics if they don't have their intelligent demonic leader commanding them. The name of the game isn't "cut through this wall of meat", it's "find and assassinate the invisible, flying Quasit commander before you are overrun by the horde."

ACOS · Post by **ACOS** » Sun May 11, 2014 3:38 pm

Grek wrote: The name of the game isn't "cut through this wall of meat", it's "find and assassinate the invisible, flying Quasit commander before you are overrun by the horde."

I approve this message.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon May 12, 2014 1:03 am

Either do that, or treat the battles with them as actual scenery - "after a bunch of battles against dretches and manes..." (maybe roll a couple of dice for damage taken).

The former is actually more interesting though.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon May 12, 2014 1:43 am

Hmmm... are there set rules on how much of your load you can carry while flying, or are things like gryphons and pegasodes just specifically limited on that count? Because I'm thinking the quasit commander could actually lift dretches and manes and drop them behind the party (I need to double check my maps at home, but I think that's the only way that they can move behind them)

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Mon May 12, 2014 2:04 am

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fly wrote:d20srd[/url]]A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load.

It's a little tricky to find, but it's there. You might expect to find the rules for flying while encumbered to be under encumbrance, or even in the movement section, but nope.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon May 12, 2014 2:08 am

Thanks. Yeah, so that's not happening. Meh, I'll look at my maps when I get back home and find out how easy it would be for the dretches and manes to get around the party. Failing that, I'm thinking I'm just going to have endless waves boiling out, maybe commanded by a flying quasit, with the actual solution being "fire a consecrate arrow into each of two pits," a power that the Archer just got.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed May 14, 2014 11:00 pm

I settled on making them a flesh wall that occasionally explodes in acid clouds by applying the DMG2 Mob template but only giving them 10 HD, but with the fast healing, stinking cloud and frightful presence ACOS suggested

ACOS · Post by **ACOS** » Thu May 15, 2014 3:49 am

Let us know how it turns out.

My players quiver in pant-shitting fear whenever I decide to whip out the mob rules. Mostly because I don't put it on bullshit like goblins and wolves. I put it on stuff that has special attacks that require a save (poisonous/diseased creatures, various incorporeal undead, etc.)